Madison Cunningham joined WUTC's Paul Jorgensen for an on-the-road chat about so many things: Big Ears 2026, Moon River 2021, the Cunningham Bird album where they cover a then little-known release, her music, and so much more.
Transcript: Interview with Madison Cunningham
Transcript generated by AI and spot edited.
Paul Jorgensen: Hi, I’m Madison Cunningham, talking to you from Southern California today.
Madison Cunningham: And you’re going to be in our neck of the woods, up at Big Ears in Knoxville.
Paul Jorgensen: Yes, just next week. And I think you’re playing on Saturday at 6:45 at the Knoxville Civic Auditorium.
Madison Cunningham: Yep, that’s right. That’s right.
Paul Jorgensen: It’s very exciting to have you coming to the area. I believe that you were at Moon River down here in Chattanooga, our fair city, back in 2021.
Madison Cunningham: Yeah, that was, I think that was the first show I played back post-pandemic. I’m almost positive, one of the first. Which was, I remember it feeling really surreal and nerve-wracking to have that be the first place back. I think we were on right before Wilco or something crazy.
Paul Jorgensen: So no pressure.
Madison Cunningham: Yeah, no pressure. It was a great day. It was like, and then there was an audience, there was a huge bridge that the stage faces and there were hundreds of people on the bridge itself and I thought, like, this is the tallest balcony I’ve ever seen.
Paul Jorgensen: Yeah, and I was supposed to have gone to that show and that performance and I definitely would have seen you there, but I was back in my professional life and so I had to travel and so I was out of town for it and I was so disappointed that I missed that show.
Madison Cunningham: Are they still doing Moon River as a festival? Is that still happening every year?
Paul Jorgensen: It’s on hiatus right now, has been for a couple of years. So we’re hopeful it’s going to come back at some point, but right now the big festival that we have here in town is we now host the IBMA’s World of Bluegrass.
Madison Cunningham: Oh, amazing, gorgeous.
Paul Jorgensen: Yeah, so that’s fun. It’s been a great event so far. This is going to be our second year hosting that and it’s very similar to Big Ears in that we have the performances in local venues all around town.
Madison Cunningham: Okay, that’s nice. It’s beauty thing and that’s based, I mean, that’s wonderful for artists as well to not be playing outside in a tent or something. It’s just so much more curated and listener-friendly.
Paul Jorgensen: Yes, definitely much more intimate and, you know, an event like that is a great place to, you know, experience artists that maybe don’t have the following and stuff like that. So they’re up and coming and you get to be there and hear that something that says, "Oh yeah, this is somebody I’m going to keep tabs on."
Madison Cunningham: Yeah, oh, that’s magnificent.
Paul Jorgensen: Yeah, so you’re in your car right now and I do want to point out based off of this Moon River thing and it happened kind of accidentally, but if we were on camera behind me, I’ve got a Wilco poster but then I’ve got my little fancy smart speaker thing that I can slide album covers into and so I’ve got Cunningham Bird in there.
Madison Cunningham: Oh man.
Paul Jorgensen: So it’s almost like a Moon River 2021 reunion.
Madison Cunningham: Yeah, it is, in terms, it’s happening in your office right now.
Paul Jorgensen: Yes, and I was very excited, I’m going to stop talking and let you start talking here in a minute, but my girlfriend and I were up in Portland earlier this year and I scored that copy while I was there. God, I love the record stores up there.
Madison Cunningham: Oh wow, that’s cool. I’m glad that it has traveled a little bit.
Paul Jorgensen: Yes, it has. And it’s for me, and this is where I’m going to start getting into asking you real questions. So when I was at university the first time back in the early 90s, I had like a fifth or sixth generation cassette tape of Buckingham Nicks that had, somebody had taped it off of somebody else’s record player back in the day and it was interesting because of course it’s part of that evolution of them eventually getting into Fleetwood Mac and then the Rumours era and everything. So it’s really fascinating, but I could not find people to really give it the time and I keep pushing it every now and then. Then I managed to get a hold of a good copy of Races are Run and so I play that and people are like, "Oh yeah, no, this is nice." And then out of nowhere, at least to me, you and Andrew Bird do this complete recreation of it but in your own styles, which I think is just absolutely beautiful. And then all of a sudden everybody’s talking about that album and it gets re-released and all of this stuff. So I guess starting off, what’s your relationship with that Buckingham Nicks album?
Madison Cunningham: Well, it’s always surprising to me when I hear people who know and love that record only because it’s been out of print as you know for so long. And I think famously like it was a flop in the 70s, quote-unquote flop, whatever that means really, and it was another, it was also a flop in the early 2000s when they tried to re-release it on vinyl. So they basically were just, they just pulled it again. And you know, I had not known that that record existed because of that reason. It was out of print and I wasn’t attached to it and it was Andrew’s idea basically like take that record on. Honestly, I think he wasn’t attached to it either, but we both thought it was funny that Cunningham Nicks sounded so close to Cunningham, or sorry, Buckingham Nicks sounded so close to Cunningham Bird.
Paul Jorgensen: That was a misplaced synergy.
Madison Cunningham: Yeah, it really, the symmetry was kind of undeniable so we went for it and just thought like also how fun would it be to kind of trap ourselves in having to do a whole record and have to make every piece of it work. You know, and who’s to say that Stevie and Lindsey would even stick by all of their creative choices today on that record and I’m not sure where they stand on that. I think there’s been some historic tension around that record, but maybe six months after we released our version they heard it and they were appreciative and they liked the record and then Andrew and I both saw that they were dropping these weird hints on Twitter which were the lyrics from those songs off that record. And we both kind of, we, you know, I don’t want to necessarily speak for Andrew but I know that I have quietly taken credit for the fact that they re-released it because of, you know, I think maybe we reminded them that it’s a really good record.
Paul Jorgensen: Yeah, and quite frankly, I’ve been saying it loudly for a while, I mean not explicitly, but I’ve been letting listeners connect the dots.
Madison Cunningham: That’s so helpful. I love people will bring that up to me every once in a while because it wasn’t like I was freaking out when I saw them reissue it. I thought it was the coolest thing, but you know we didn’t like get credited for it at all, which I didn’t think we would have but people will slowly be like, "Wait, is that a thing? Did that...?" and I actually do think that it was. It’s really funny. I mean I’m so proud of that.
Paul Jorgensen: Yeah, well and when my girlfriend who is very into the whole drama around Fleetwood Mac, so she follows that constantly, when she told me about it I thought for sure it was a hoax.
Madison Cunningham: Really?
Paul Jorgensen: And then to actually have it come out was just shocking. And then she was one of the people I’d played that old copy for and it did not register and now of course she loves it and she doesn’t understand why I didn’t play it for her before.
Madison Cunningham: I wonder what the deal is with that. I think there’s just something about when a bunch of people resonate with something it gives maybe the rest of society permission to like it or something, which is unfortunate. Like some of the best records people don’t resonate with in the moment. It’s like not time yet. It doesn’t hit. And I kind of love, it just reminds you how mysterious it all is.
Paul Jorgensen: Yeah, there’s a weird alchemy that happens and I don’t know if it’s the safety of the crowd kind of a thing that gives them license to like this thing or just the fact that there are so many voices that are talking about it, it just registers higher in their thought process.
Madison Cunningham: Yeah, well there’s so much to consume, so it there’s so much has to be working right all at the same time in order for it to break through noise.
Paul Jorgensen: Yeah, and so yesterday on my show I played Races are Run, but of course I had to also play Jango, which is the small track right before it as they bleed right into each other or blend right into each other. And that was an aspect that I don’t think that I had registered before, the fact that those songs do flow right into each other. I think that bad tape that I had had had a gap in between. And so discovering that when I listened to the album all the way through was, you know, a delight.
Madison Cunningham: Oh, that’s so cool. I love, I actually haven’t checked, is it on streaming platforms as well or did they just re-release it on vinyl? I’m actually not sure.
Paul Jorgensen: I think it’s up on streaming platforms. I’m not sure either and I don’t want to do the clicky-click to check. Anyway, this is about you, not them.
Madison Cunningham: Sorry to distract.
Paul Jorgensen: No, that’s all right. That’s all right. But yeah, so anyway, it’s a remarkable album and I’ve also loved Ace, which you came out with last year, I think in October that got released, right?
Madison Cunningham: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Paul Jorgensen: And it’s such a different album obviously in its construction, but it’s still got especially the melodies are so strong in that and of course your voice plays so nicely with it. So what can you talk a little bit about the difference in the approach between Cunningham Bird and then doing Ace?
Madison Cunningham: Yeah, I mean sonically the approach is different. Like different, I feel like they’re both in different seasons, you know. Buckingham Nicks feels like spring to me in all of the sounds and Ace feels like fall, but it’s funny because that also could just be my association with the time in which I made them, which were spring and fall. But Ace, I mean I would say the commonality between the two records is that they both were recorded live and both aimed to not be overcomplicated and to just kind of like follow what felt good and true and fun and to not over-write or over-record anything. And Ace is definitely a denser record, but we, you know, everything that you hear, each song was recorded and finished in a single day.
Paul Jorgensen: Oh, wow.
Madison Cunningham: Yeah, so we did, we did 15 days up in Woodstock and we would start in the morning with like the live bones of the whole track and we’d choose the right take and then we would build. Me and Jesse Chandler and my touring band, Jesse Chandler played all the woodwinds on the record and he, you know, him and I would sit there for a couple of hours just stacking woodwind parts and then Phil Cronengold would add like Mellotron strings, usually live, like because it would be like a band, like a quartet plus Jesse kind of a recording ensemble and then we would build after that. So it was, I guess that’s the only similarity to Buckingham Bird is that we recorded that record very similarly like it was live and we would finish the songs in one day.
Paul Jorgensen: So I guess that bleeds into the next question that I was going to ask is so that since you were performing it live as you were recording it, I would suppose that the transition then to taking it out on the road was easier, but maybe I’m not correct in that. What was that process like getting these songs you played live in the studio, you’ve recorded them and now you’re taking them out on the road?
Madison Cunningham: Well, the ensemble is different. It’s just Jesse and I for this tour. So I mean it was, I wouldn’t call it easy, even though it’s like simplified and there’s just two of us, like to try and match the emotional arc and like peaks and valleys that we need to get to, we just had to do a lot of math at first about like how do I make this part swell? I gotta find this pedal that does this thing and Jesse’s running things through harmonizers and loopers and I’m running my shit through loopers. So it’s, you know, it finally the show is now at a place where it feels like music, less like calculation. So it, you know, there was a steep learning curve. I’m almost sad that it’s, we’re on the final leg of the tour because I feel like I would love to go back and do the whole West Coast again just because we know, you know, that was our on-ramp to really finding the thing.
Paul Jorgensen: Yeah, so now you’ve got all of this experience under your belt, now you want to go and say, "Okay, you saw us before, but now look at what we’ve done."
Madison Cunningham: Yeah, or like it’s less like "look at what we’ve done," it’s almost like just get immersed in this experience because I think before it wasn’t as fluid and now it has that natural flow and now there’s headroom for exploration, which was my goal the whole time was to like build something that had structure but then leave enough space to try new things every night. So that’s been really cool.
Paul Jorgensen: Oh, that’s great. So how are you incorporating that kind of improvisation in there? Is it just very much of the moment or is it something that before you’re going on you two are kind of saying, "Oh, I might do this here and might do this there?"
Madison Cunningham: We, well it really depends on what part of the set, you know, we’re kind of opening up to exploration, but for the most part the transitional moments between songs are improvised and we don’t talk about any of that beforehand. It’s all about being reactionary, which is so exciting. I mean every show feels like a footprint, like it’s unique, it’s not... and every night we’ve had something to talk about and to tighten up or whatever. It’s been, the show feels youthful in that way to me. Like I feel like it’s kind of, it’s like a bottomless pit of creative energy.
Paul Jorgensen: I like that. It starts to sound dark with that bottomless pit but then it’s the creative energy and it’s like "Oh yeah, well..."
Madison Cunningham: Bottomless pit but of creative energy. So it’s the good kind.
Paul Jorgensen: Yeah, bottomless pit doesn’t have to be a bad thing.
Madison Cunningham: No, no, not at all.
Paul Jorgensen: Yeah, so this is, I’m really looking forward to the show and I do want to remind folks again it’s going to be at the Knoxville Civic Center on Saturday, March the 26th starting at 6:45. And that’s a fun venue. I’m really excited to get a chance to see you up there in... you know, see how this has evolved for you. Yeah, that’s going to be great. But one question I need to ask, well actually I have a bunch of different questions. So are you going to get a chance to like hang around in Knoxville and go see some other acts or are you very much in and back out again?
Madison Cunningham: We have a little time the next morning, I think. I think we have a long drive ahead but it’s a day off so we’re going to kind of delay our departure till like after lunch or something. So we’ll get to see some things in the morning.
Paul Jorgensen: Have you had a chance to look over and see who you might want to take a listen to?
Madison Cunningham: I haven’t yet, no. I gotta... I have not... that’s very classic me to not be at all prepared.
Paul Jorgensen: So don’t look right now.
Madison Cunningham: I won’t, I promise I won’t do that right now. I want to live. I want to be there.
Paul Jorgensen: Yes, exactly. Precious cargo.
Madison Cunningham: I was just going to say if my reception gets a little choppy here I might be going through a weird area, but I should be fine.
Paul Jorgensen: Okay, we will adapt. So but when you’re out on the road, do you get a chance to connect with some of the local music scenes, maybe go to some of the local record stores, do that kind of thing?
Madison Cunningham: Record stores for sure. The only tricky part about that, and probably why I largely avoid record stores on tour, is because I don’t ever have any space in my suitcase to bring anything home. So yeah, I’m not necessarily going to record stores unless I’m like going to look for record cover inspiration or to look at something and go, "Okay, maybe I’ll put that in my on my list of like I’ll buy that eventually." But we have not had much time because we’re in a van so we’re, you know, we’re driving all day until soundcheck and then we have like maybe two hours after soundcheck to eat and to get ready. So I wish is my real answer.
Paul Jorgensen: Yeah, yeah I can see driving in a van space might be at a premium and having a bunch of relatively heavy flat things might not be the best travel companion.
Madison Cunningham: Not really, not really. And then there’s the possibility that they break, so I just try to keep it light.
Paul Jorgensen: Yes, yes. And you also if I understand correctly, you are involved in a public radio show with Chris Thile?
Madison Cunningham: Thile, yep, yep. Yeah, that was back in the day. I mean that public radio show I think has since... I think it’s been put to bed. I think it’s on hiatus, yeah.
Paul Jorgensen: Yeah, maybe it’ll come back one day. I don’t know. It was such an undertaking. I was like amazed that Chris was able to, you know, he was writing a song every week for it and that’s a lot of songs and a lot of just so much work. He’s remarkable. I always joked that that was my college education because I was 21 when I started working with him and just I felt like I became a better musician and a better singer just from being around all those people.
Paul Jorgensen: Oh yeah, I can definitely see that. And in too you’ve got that kind of pressure cooker, but you’ve got that kind of immediacy to it. "Oh, it’s new song, I’ve got to learn it in time that we can go and record the show" and...
Madison Cunningham: Oh man, our like technical learning on the fly ability or like just our ears got so much bigger because we had, we you know, we really only had them to rely on.
Paul Jorgensen: Yeah, I bet. But...
Madison Cunningham: Or I did, yeah. I didn’t, I can’t read so a lot of the musicians could read and do it on the fly and I could not.
Paul Jorgensen: Ah, okay. Okay. But then now is that one of the skills that’s helping you in like this current tour with that kind of improvisational element that y’all have going on?
Madison Cunningham: Yeah, oh yeah. I mean I do think that ultimately it’s a safe thing to say that relying on ear is a deeper thing than learning how to read. So I haven’t needed to read except for really unique, you know, situations like that and that ended up being fine as well. I just relied on listening very, very attunely.
Paul Jorgensen: Yes, I can imagine so. But you know this, that show brings up my next question which is what is your relationship in addition to that to public radio, public media, college radio, that kind of thing?
Madison Cunningham: You know, I’m not a huge listener. So I suppose you know my relationship to it is hoping that they play my music. But what... I’m not like a huge... I’ve never been a huge radio person and I really admire people who are. Like I have friends who are like always tuned into their local station and and I’ve, you know, like listened to NPR for maybe a spell, but I’m more of a podcaster myself and I’m I go in and out of big listening to music phases. And by podcaster I mean a listener, not an actual podcaster. Let’s just clear that up.
Paul Jorgensen: Thank you for the clarification.
Madison Cunningham: You’re welcome. Not that anyone was thinking that I was podcasting out there, but I yeah I do not moonlight. I really don’t.
Paul Jorgensen: But you know, everybody’s got a podcast. Or they’ve had one, or they’ve thought about one. It’s what really brings us all together.
Madison Cunningham: Yeah, it’s the classic joke. It’s like if you if you like if you’ve run out of ideas you’ve started a podcast. No offense to anyone.
Paul Jorgensen: Yeah, well so what is your your joy in the podcast space right now? What are you listening to?
Madison Cunningham: I mean, Smartless is just a classic mindless lovable show. The Daily, obviously for just for news and stuff. What else have I been loving? I’m a I’m a big murder podcast person which is not, you know, something I’m necessarily proud of, but it is something I find fascinating. So I was listening to a podcast called Casefile for a couple years. Taking a break for good reason. What else have I been loving? Hardcore History, I’ve been listening to that which is...
Paul Jorgensen: Oh yeah, I know that one. Yeah.
Madison Cunningham: Yeah, it’s incredible. It’s I just listened to the the episode on basically the war between Russia and Germany, the war that essentially kind of ended, you know, World War II. So boys into that while I was traveling through Germany, which was pretty dark. I’m a little bit masochistic as I’m hearing myself out loud. But yeah, I’m just I’m fascinated by by like how far the mind and greed and power of hunger for power in humanity goes.
Paul Jorgensen: Yeah, it’s kind of mind-boggling when you stop and think about it and I guess where better else to do that than I guess traveling through Germany.
Madison Cunningham: Exactly. Oh, the last thing I’ll say to leave on on like a high note of what I’ve been listening to. Blindboy, I don’t know if you’ve if you’ve listened to him at all. Blindboy, the wonderful Irishman. Can’t recommend that podcast enough. I think he’s such a special mind and voice out there right now.
Paul Jorgensen: I will have to check that out and put it in the show notes so people can track it down too.
Madison Cunningham: Yeah, please do.
Paul Jorgensen: Yeah, let’s see. So alright, so you’re not a big listener on the road but are there any artists that you think our listeners should probably check out?
Madison Cunningham: Let me think. I you know what have I been loving that is up and coming... You know what, I just been listening to this record by a woman named Ruth Parker. I’m going to just double-check for us right now that that’s correct but this artist is just I don’t know much about her but she put out this record that I think is so beautiful and special and it’s called Otherwise Occupied. Ruth Parker, yeah I was right. Yeah, she’s I really that’s my rec for today.
Paul Jorgensen: Okay, two recs actually.
Madison Cunningham: I kind of did do two recs, yeah. Two recs for today. Yeah, I think it’ll improve your life, I really do.
Paul Jorgensen: Yes, indeed also to improve one’s life, going up to Knoxville on the 26th for a 6:45 start at the Knoxville Civic Auditorium to see Madison Cunningham live in concert. I am so looking forward to it. I was just before I got on the the call with you talking with my colleagues, we’re figuring out the logistics like how many cars are we going to take and you know how are we going to make sure that we’re getting out there but we’re not stepping on each other’s toes and everything because just the list there is just so fantastic but I’ve got you up at the top.
Madison Cunningham: Oh man, that’s an honor.
Paul Jorgensen: Oh, thank you. And so I want to say thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me and my listeners today. It’s been an absolute delight.
Madison Cunningham: Yeah man, thanks for having me. I I appreciate these wonderful fun questions.
Paul Jorgensen: I want to make sure that you you travel safe, both to your destination now and on your way out to Knoxville.
Madison Cunningham: I’m intending on getting to both places in one piece. Thank you for your concern.
Paul Jorgensen: Well you are welcome. Madison Cunningham, thank you so much and have a great rest of your day.
Madison Cunningham: You too. Bye.
Transcript generated by AI and spot edited. Errors, while regrettable, are likely. Email wutc@utc.edu with corrections.
